I bet, if you have landed in here then, I have succeeded luring your attention just by this thread?s title per se. Well! Amusing is it?s it? Sankaracharya, one of most accredited Hindu guru is counting his days in the confinement and it hasn?t merely stirred anyone back in so called world?s only Hindu kingdom Nepal. I believe it?s an anti Indian sentiment at play, why bother a dhoti being arrested by bunch of dhotis? But I often muse over how Nepal would have reacted given the scenario Mr. Sankarcharya fleeing in Nepal dodging arrest but India demanding Nepal to cooperate for his arrest. The circumstances screech a big NO! We would have seen yet another brag of Hinduism. Yeah, I know I have put forward case of ?what if?, which could be argued on the ground ?no it has not?. Still, I am skeptical and against to those ardent Hindu followers who think, Hinduism is the greatest religion and philosophy of all.

I was born Hindu, but I don?t feel comfortable claiming myself a Hindu. I have surpassed the word HATE in here. I don?t have any explanation to ask with other religions, even if they opine their religion is the greatest. I am still egalitarian but bonded by Hindu culture. For me, I don?t get accustomed to the Hindu cultures and traditions for me but for my peers, and I know what exactly to do if they are not around.

I would have been loyal to religion only if I had cocksure answer why people are treated as a pariah for smoking marijuana or prostituting or deceiving? Epic states Lord Shiva enjoyed getting high, King of Heaven God Indra always had apsaras, dance bar girls in the contemporary world, amusing him, Lord Ram bamboozled the ethics of war by arrowing down Bali from behind the stone.

One should look at on his own boots before regarding other down. Let?s not get confused with religion, nationalism, frustration and confusion.

Confused Ji, how are you doing :)? I always amused by your presence in Sajha. I am so busy that don't have enough time to write quite often but we will certainly share our understandings. I feel we have lot many things common, both of us are explorers, open minded for new ideas, keen to learn about the mysterious nature, practical, resultant oriented and many others. We are alike from many aspects, don't you feel? There are many friends like us in Sajha, I wish I could meet them in person some day. Vedic life is also one of them :). By the way thanks for your answers.

Vedic life, of course I am with you my friend. I am not happy with you though :) (kidding), you did't give answers of my any questions. My questions are straight forward and specific, they don't require long explanation. Either I am dull, or you couldn't understand my questions, even if I search inside your long postings for my answers, I lost myself from the reality. Anyway, your every posting generate enormous questions in my mind but I want to forget all these and concentrate on your reply to my query.

You said Hinduism believe in one god....... So what is the difference between Judism, Islam, Christianity and Hinduism? As you have posted some examples from Upanishads, can you please post here some examples from Vedas that reinforcing your statement.....
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Creation, preservation and destruction go hand-in-hand in this world. Saguna Brahman is not just the creator, but the preserver and destroyer also. The creator aspect of Saguna Brahman is called Brahma; the preserver aspect, Vishnu; and the destroyer aspect Shiva or Maheshwara. These three form the so-called Hindu Trinity.
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Wait a minute, wait a minute; your above mentioned statement begets doubt in my mind that you really know the Vedas. As far as I know concept of incarnation system and the generator, operator and destroyer was developed in Pauranic Era, much after than the Buddha. So you are mixing up the things. As I read your posting, the way you are stating bound me believe that you are the master of the Vedas, if not at least Student of the Vedas. Now I am doubtful. Putting my numerous questions aside let me put just one question to you.

Do you know all Vedas or not?
Have you at least read Rig-Veda once?
Have you read at least few Richas (Chapters) of Rig-Vedas?

These questions are yes/ no questions, if the answer is affirmative, I will put forward my questions otherwise not.

Vedic life, I want to learn, I don?t want to discuss. I wish you are a great scholar of Veda and will quench my thrust of Vedic knowledge. If you don't know Vedas at least to some extent, is it not rational to talk about it. We grow up in very bad tradition where we advocate things just out of blind faith. My father used to say when I was a child, "Do you know Vedas are the source of all the knowledge, it has everything in it. Modern science is also included in it." I believed him and started to tell to my friends till I was in College. My friends used to appreciate it, I used to feel joy.

Now I am reading Vedas, they are disappointing. There should be good chapters too; I haven't come across them yet. Even if there are good chapters, an innocent reader will certainly get confused because the whole Vedas are full of violence and the greed. The Mantras of Veda either talk about the war or secrificial ceremonies or praise of gods like Indra, Barun, Mitra, Purusha, Agni etc for the material wealth. Believe me I haven't expected Quantum Chromo Dynamics in Vedas but I have expected that it would be explicit about the enlightenment, and the path leading to the enlightenment. My expectations are fading but I am still optimistic, I still have to read it entirely.

Contd........

My revered teacher referred one verse from Rig-Veda that deals about the path of purification:

"Yo Vishow Vhu Vipsssati, Sancha Passati, Sana Parsati Ta Dweshaha!"

One who explores himself through right understanding will come out of all the anger.

This single sentence is so great that it is the solution of all the problems. Those who have been practicing meditation will know this better; this is the clue and essence of untying knots. Coming out of anger means- coming out of craving, coming out of craving means -coming out of entire fetter system. Medicine need not be plenty, couple of pills is enough if it is right.

But, isn't this like looking for a diamond piece in a coal mine? Without any discrimination, with an objective judgment, from my own experience and study I can say, unlike Veda the entire Tipathika tells about the path of liberation, the path of purification, the path of complete cessation of misery. Read every single verse, every single Sutta, every single chapter, it will make the path clearer and clearer. Don't believe me, just test yourself.

The oldest verses of Rig-Veda are considered to be not more than 5000 years old. Rather than spirituality they reflect the brutality of Aryans over Darvidians. These verses shade some light on the geography of Indus valley and its surroundings. For example, Rig-Veda mentioned about a big river known as Saraswati, which dried out, that might have forced Aryan towards more North. This river is still exist in Mantras- " Gange Cha, Yemune Cha, Godavari, Saraswati". Anthropologist recently discovered the bank of this dried river. Rig-Veda reviles that the Aryans used to be compassionless, brutal hunters. They had good iron weapons and they had chariots. They conquered peace loving, poorly equipped, dark skinned Dravidians and made them slave. These are called Sudras (I don't want to go about the cast system here, which is another chapter). Some of these Dark skinned people who opposed were killed, and they were labeled as Rakshas, the evil. Some of these people escaped to the South. Dravidians used to be very civilized people, they used to have privite bath houses in their home, drainage, sewage system etc.

Aryan used to worship the personification of nature. For example, personification of fire is- Agni, personification of rain is -Indra, personification of sea is -Barun, personification of Sun is -Surya, Moon is -Soma etc. This used to be very common in every civilization. The first greatest civilization of the world, Mesopotamia, the second greatest civilization, Egyptians used to do that. Aryan might have taken this concept from them, because they came into the figure only 2000 to 1000 years after these two great civilizations. These two civilizations remind highly influential for centuries and Aryan must be familiar to these two lands so that they can make a voyage from central Europe to Indus valley via Middle East.

Aryan merchants should be well known to all the major area around Indus valley to invade it. Avasta, the secret scripture of Iranians share many Vedic gods. Both Veda and Avesta have 33 gods (later in Pauranic era they need more new gods so they put million after 33 and made 33 million- this is another big chapter I want to limit myself to Vedas). Mayan people of America -completely another world, also have developed the concept of god independently; their major gods were also the Sun and the Moon the natural objects. My point is the gods were created by people; it was gradual development of civilization.

Indra used to be the main god of Aryans, it makes sense they were farmers and he was the personification of rain. Farmars need rain. These all Gods used to be worshipped with praise to make them happy so that they would offer people material wealth, prosperity, good health, good luck etc.

Contd.....

Vishontar,

I am sorry that I didn't answer your question, I tend to change subject really quick :). And as for your question on what is the difference between Hinduism, christianity, judaism, and Islam...that's another story of its own. There is no simple answer to that.

I am sorry I've i don't post much because I'm in the middle of a move. I will be moving to a new place in a week, so I'm busy packing. Once I'm done moving and am settled, I will get back on and give you more details.

I am not saying I know the vedas in side out. Because the Vedas is so vast, one would need to dedicate his whole life reading and learning it. I am a follower of Vivekandanda and Yoganadana, so I've read the vedanta (the ending of the vedas) which concludes and summarizes the vedas. I've also read the Vedanta, and parts of the veda. Yes I'm read somehwat of the Rig Veda. There are four vedas, and the rig veda is the oldest. Rig Veda is the hymns, its mostly just mantras that you use.

I will get back more into all this next week. If you want more information, there is a site that has all the religious text of the world. it's http://www.sacred-texts.com/.

I'll get back on you soon vishontar!

vishuavtar if i am not mistaken u must be my mate vivek panday...........u sound so much like him....i mean i meet him in my frens wedding and whole nite he was talking about vedas and relegion with science..........he brought me into this things...........

anyways man...........i have taken u as my guru about vedas man

respect

jai shiva

anyway do u know that still in south india they praise ravan? do u belive that ramayan was manupulated by balmiki......even they say now hanuman was not monkey.....he looked like it........he was from danavas......family...so he was put that way by balmiki. Dont you think like this devas and danvas were two different tribes living in rig vedic time.Danavas were dark and smart..as well........if u look at some puranas....all the beautiful palace and city were made by danav. like whole indraprast city which is delhi now in india was designed by vishwakarma......who was danav........look at ravan .....he was danav man with brain of 10 ppl not ten heads........they use to call lanka city of gold......he use to travel in puspak viman.which god didnot even had...

dont u think whole vedas after rig is manupulated........for me the pure ved is rig....the first one.......and how come there is not so much mention of shiva..............well new findings are suggesting that shiva was from south america possible.......they say shiva dont have gotra, family.......i am sure...but look at the way they write man...so much humilation and scarisitic...

Aryans were hard working, well organized people. They advanced economically and might have realized that the material well being was not sufficient for the happy life, which is true for all time. They might have started to explore the cause of unhappiness. Many great kings, rich ministers, traders, farmers couldn't have found happiness besides having all the luxuries. So, they might have started to abandon their kingdoms, houses, farms in search of happiness. Pali literature says that even Sudras renounced and became great Yogi. This might be the starting point of the real spirituality.

They became Aranyaka, the one who lives in the place where there is no rule of any king, ie in solitute. Through their search they discovered ?Rita?, which means the law of nature. They figured out many mysteries and secrets of the nature, through their own effort, through silence observation of their mind and body or themselves. They were known as "Rishi", Ritang Issati ti Rishi = one who knows the laws of nature is Rishi. They didn't bother to discover any law that governs the matter, all the laws that they found were related to the mind, because undisciplined chaotic mind was the cause of misery. They were looking for cause of misery not the cause of discomfort.

First thing they might have figured out that the mind needed be controlled, tamed and disciplined. Prerequisite for that was solitude, so they left home to avoid disturbance. This was how the tradition of RENOUNCIATION might have started, which is one of the Pillar for the truth seekers. If the mind is too wild, it is hard to control or tame, so relatively calm mind was the next prerequisite. If one is morally corrupt one can't have a calm mind, there is always storm of disturbance in immoral mind. This might be the deep origin of MORALITY in Jambu Dipa, which has become another Pillar for truth seekers, and symbol of Indian subcontinant.

Then they might have tried different techniques to get mastery over the mind. They might have tried some means to focus the mind; the means could be anything related to sense organs. For example; Naad = Concentrate on sound of the surrounding, ear sense organ. Kasin = Concentrate on some luminescent spot- eye sense organ. Anapana = Concentrate on your breath, body sense organ, tange. Chittanupassana = Concentrate on your thoughts. Concentrating on taste- tong sense organ and concentrating on semll- nose sense organs are not that practical so it is not found that much in literature. Mantra = Concentration on words. They derived the words of best vibration like, Ohm, Hring, Cling, Fat etc.

Through concentration they started to reach very higher state of mind. They started to find infinite tranquility, that's why they named it as Samath, the equanimity, no bothering state. These absorption Samadhis were known as atha Samapatti. Moreover they claimed that they found unusual psychic power out of these Samadhis. They claimed that they have seen other worlds, like Deva Loka, Brahma Loka, Preta Loka, Narak Loka etc. They could hear ultra/infra Sonics, they could see what is not visible to normal eye, they could be lighter than the air and fly, they could disappear here and appear some other remote place instantly, they could see and communicate with invisible human beings.

Contd....

The greatest discovery of these Rishi's was Brahma. They claimed that they discovered a highest realm known as Brahma Loka. One who mastered third Dhyana to Eighth Dhayana could see these Brahma Lokas and can communicate with Brahma. They claimed that they could see their many past lives; they could see many aeons (Kalpa)back, this might be the first time when concept of REBIRTH came to human existence. Since in their all past lives they had seen the same Brahmas that they were seeing then, they concluded that Brahmas were eternal.

As they could see the past they had seen the destruction of the world, destruction of all the realms except highest Brahma Loka, so they said Brahma Loka was permanent. They discovered four qualities of Brahma, Maitri (loving kindness), Karuna (compassion), Mudita (joy), and Upechheya (equanimity). These qualities are called Brahma Bihara. This is how concept of Brahma came in existence. Later Pauranic people defined Barhma as a soul or supersole. Some made it generator of the world. Four faces of Burma is the representation of four Brahma Bihar, this was the symbolic language tradition started around 1000 AD.

Those who reached at this stage, or who knew about the Brahma were started to be known as Brahman, a respected title. This group of people became well revered in the society because they started to teach householders how to live peacefully, happily and harmoniously. They started the scientific concept of merit and demerit in the society. They taught householders to develop good qualities like generosity, through donation for their better future and present happiness. They taught householders to live wholesome life. They taught householders to be part of the enormous merit earned by Rishis through absorption Samadhis by donating alms and cloths to them. In return Rishis guide them for their present and future welfare. This might be the birth of DONATIN, another great pillar for the truth seekers, and became a part of Aryans. Astak, Bamak, Bamadev, Basistha, Yemadagni, Angira, Bhardwaj, Kashyap, Virgu, Vishowmitra etc are very popular Rishis of the time who had attened very higher Samadhis. Later on when Purans were written some of these names were taken as a character.

Everything sounds like modern life and scientific experiments. As these days few scientists do experiments from the government (peoples) funding, and as they discover something it starts to serve the society. That science no longer remains limited inside the laboratory but becomes a part of life. Similarly, the society started to embrace the discovery of the Rishis. This might be the starting of ASHRAM life, a most advanced stage of Aryan life. Brahmacharya (Student), Grihastha (household), Banaprstha (looking for Guru), Sannyas (renounciation) are four Asramas. As the Yogis could see effects (Phala) of many causes (Karma), they might have guided people to perform only wholesome Karma to avoid from bitter Phala. (Some scholar believed that Hindus took concept of Karma and Phala form Buddha, but I am not agree with them because from Buddhas discourses it is clear that people at the time of Buddha found talking about wholesome and unwholesome Karma and their Phala, but which Karma bear what fruit was not clear for them, Buddha discovered explicit answer of it).

Most of the people of the society might have realized that merit was necessary for the better future or better next life. But all of them couldn't leave house and become Yogi to earn merit. That's' why they might have come up with the concept of Ashram life. (Some western scholars believed that Hindus didn't know about rebirth before Buddha, they took this concept from Buddha's teaching during Pauranic era, I am not agree with them because different concept of rebirth were prevailing there, but of course they were just in the form of rumor only).

Some Rishis might have attended complete liberation, Mokshya too, but the concept of Mokshya was not that common. (Some scholars believed that Hindus took the concept of Mokshya ie enlightenment from Buddhism, I am not agreeing with them because in the society the concept of enlightenment was there. When Siddhartha Gautam, the greatest Hero of Aryan born in Kapilvasthu, many had predicted that he would rediscover the path of liberation, Mukti Marga. This means there must be the path before. Buddha also said that he rediscovered the path, and the path was there long ago. Kassep was the name of the Buddha who preceded him, but the time of existence of Kassep Buddha, according to Gautam Buddha doesn't seem within the Aryan period, not even within the period of Homo sapiens. There are many things that can be clear only through very higher state of meditation and deeper study. But one thing is pretty clear, there was no path of liberation while Buddha was born, he became Mukti Nath, he rediscovered the path)

This sounds like myth. For me there is nothing unacceptable other than the psychic miracles. I can neither accept nor reject those. I can not accept those because I haven't experienced them myself and I haven't seen a significant number of people claiming to have experienced. I can not reject too, because the path is clear to me to experience the absorption Samadhis and I haven't tried my best to achieve them. I think it is rational to say the achievements of those great Rishis were true or false only after achieving all those eight absorption Samadhis. Our belief or non belief doesn't make any sense.

contd..

Vishontar,

There is no such race as the aryan race, nor are there such people that supposedly invaded the indian subcontinent. This whole Aryan invasion theory was made by a german indologist, MAX MULLER who was a christian missonary that wanted to give inscentive for the british and westerner to invade the indian subcontent. This is all made up. Hinduism was never brought in by any group, it was always present. I don't have much time to go into details, but please read this:

http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu_home/1995_Jul_2/msg00087.html

ARYANS AND ARYAN INVASION IS A MYTH

Vishontar ji...

Adding to Vedic Life's link. Here is another research done by Dr. Kenneth Chandler about the myth - "Aryans invading the Indian subcontinet". The scientific, historical, and archeological facts provided may help clear your dubious mind. I hope you no longer have your misconceptions. Enjoy !!

http://sanskrit.bhaarat.com/Dale/Origins/

Vishontar jee, thank you for your kind words and for providing us with such good information, and please do continue..

Vedic_life, how can something exist for etenrity, at last we are humans arent we? I consider hindusim as a philosophy and way of life, than a religion. I have a immense respect on it tho, but the fact that it existed forever, i just cant digest it. and, yes as you said, the Aryans history was a false idea, it was propose for the sake of western world, dont you think same crouptness might also apply to this proposal.

At last, Religion is one of the most important thing in men's life and i respect it alot, and interfering with it has always burned fire and killed millions. So, let me stay away from your beliefs and focus on my own philosophical beilifs of this religion.

Thanks Vedic_life for the link.
has anybody an idea of the following text?

"Lands of the Aryans
are mentioned in them from Gandhara (Afganistan) in the west to Videha
(Nepal) in the east, and south to Vidarbha (Maharashtra)."

Where is the Videha???

Ramayana is merely a story of a war between two cultures, Aryans (Ram) and Dravidians (Rawan). Aryans had the technology that allowed them to win. That technology is WHEEL. With wheels, they were able to mobilise faster than Dravidians. History is written by winners, so the winner got to be god and loser got to be demon.

Hoina ra?

On the other note, both Hinduism and Buddhism talk about "Sunyata" being the ultimate state. Any thoughts on this?

Yeha ta Rigbed, Yajurbed aadi ko kura po bhai 'ra rahichha.

The only ved I know is Haluwabed. Kancho huda tarro, pake pachi khallo.

Om shantihi shantihi

vedic life ji

Sanskrit has evolved a lot. So "Bhag" also means vagina. Regarding the spelling for arrow in sanskrit, for simplicity I used "ban" (because I beleive language must be simple and easy to use) other ppl can use "wan" or "Waan". the word suggest the arrow.

Vishontar ji

Rig Ved and Tripitika were written in different era so the approach is different because by the time of Budhha lots of ppl tried and failed to get Mokchya as suggested/envisaged by Rig Ved so Budhha gave different try.

I beleive, "mokchya" is an Illusion and it does not exists, it is an imaginary "thing" dreamed/discovered by ppl who were tired of war/greed. It was also an attratcive mirage for the the ppl who failed many times. So the Priests used it as a tool to lure ppl towards religion.

Budhhism teaches very passive life which is not possible in present era. All Religions books are full of interest. They have noble poetry in themt; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.

enjoy the life

Solver... to your query

Videha, which is indeed in the eastern part of Nepal, as you have mentioned. Videha Kingdom is the modern day Janakpur. If you remember Sita, the daughter of King Janak of Janakpur, is also known as Vaidehi - meaning daughter(princess) of Videha. It is also clearly mentioned in the Ramayana.

also not to forget is that during the rein of mahabharat......kathmandu and some parts of nepal was run by kirat.......and most popular king of kirat yalambar was there................there is a also a myth that actually yalambar took part in battle itself......and his 2 sons died as well......( eklabe) guy who cut his thumb for dronacharya also comes from nepal side too................


riten bro if aryan has wheel ......then how come dravidans didnot copy it........if they wanted to make it......they could........if ravan is mentioned with his viman( plane)..........not to be forget that dravidans are good in making things......like palace, cities............like still mentioned beauty of lanka......mentioned beauty of city indraprasta and palace of pandavas.....


actualy they were given name danav.........like sankaracharya who is also dravidans......like

I sometime think my decision to post on this subject was wrong. Subject is quite vast; needs clarification on every single statement, my busy life doesn't allow me to write long explanations, which is generating a lot of confusion on readers. Even if I could manage to write long explanation; readers will be bored and won?' be able to grasp the gist, that won't serve my purpose. There is a saying in the west - "knowledge without application is dead". If I write something and that yields no result, why am I wasting my time? That won't satisfy me. Posting on Sajha is my social life; I want some elements of the society be benefited from me. So, I thought it is better to clarify what I have already posted instead of continuing posting, hope that will clear your confusion.

VL Ji and Soleli Ji, thank you very much for your correction. Thanks for the links too. I checked them but couldn't complete due to time constrain. In fact I was aware of the theory. Anyway I want to say something on this matter.First I want to make clear why I am writing.

We grow up in such an imaginary society where there is no room for the investigation interrogation, and scientific analysis. We just believe what we have heard we never try to explore the truth. A blind faith is prevailing all around. Through my study, understanding, and experience I am trying to make people to think about their belief, think about themselves. There are three types of truths. One Sabda Satya = truth of words = you read books or hear from someone and accept it. Two, Chintan Sattya = truth that comes form logical thinking or intellectual understanding. Three, Anubhava Sattya = the truth that comes form self experience. Things starts from Sabda Sattya, then move to Chintan Sattya to Anubhava Sattya. Sabbda Sattya is inferior to Chintan Sattya and Anubhav Sattya is most superior and powerful.

We believe that we are spiritual, and talk about Param Sattya, the ultimate truth. But the problem is we don't even know Sabbda Sattya, which is basic. We don't read Veda; we don?' know what Vedas contain. We just believe that they contain everything. Does that make any sense? I don't appreciate that. We live in real world, tangible world, we have to be realistic. We have to read them and judge them; we don't have to accept them blindly. This is my point. There is nothing metaphoric, Vedas are straight forward. They contain good as well as bad stuffs. Let me shed some light on this part.

People believe that Vedas are eternal, they were written in Sati Yug, a hypothetical era, which is considered to exist billions of years ago. If you read Vedas and analyze scientifically the way of Vedic life and geography, they can't be older than 10,000 years, the worst case. Isn't that contradicting our belief? We believe that the Vedic people were idle people with live perfect, stainless, moral life. But Vedas reveal that they were violence promoting people. Isn?' that against our general belief? Most of the people believe that Vedas were words from the god the almighty, but Vedas say nothing about that explicitly. Vedas doesn?' accept the supremacy of some invisible super natural powers unlike Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Isn't this against of what we belief?

Don't we believe that Vedas were written by one of the mythological figure Ganesh and they were uttered by an immortal sage Vyansa? Did Vedas say something about it? Are we children to believe on immortality? We believe that Veda is the source of Yoga, and we utter from our most revered scripture Geeta ? "Samatwang Yoga Uchhete = equality, equanimity is yoga", but Vedas are full of impatience and discrimination. We believe that Vedic life is perfect life but believe me if you read Veda you will agree with me it was not an advance society.

People think that they are spiritual because they believe on Vedas. Spirituality is the search of Paramartha Sattya, the ultimate truth. Can such blind belief lead you to Paramartha Sattya? Truth can not be found through imagination and gullibility. Truth can only be found through reality. Not only believers, non believers are also in the same boat. Without study, without experience they just reject everything. I don't think that is logical too.

I want to encourage people to come to reality. I want them to start from Sabda Sattya, the truth of words. They have to read Vedas and check whether their belief is correct or not. Then they have to move to Manan Sattya, the truth that comes from logical reasoning or intellectual analysis. We are Manu Puttras = Son of the mind, we can judge the words of Vedas. We will accept rational useful words only. Then we will go to Bhawana Sattya, the experiential truth. We will test the validity of the words that we have heard, and validity of thoughts that sounded rational. This experiential truth will lead to the ultimate truth. The whole path should be the path of the truth, the path of reality, the path of actuality. This is real spirituality. This is what I want to say.

Veda = Vedayititi Vedang = whatever is experienced is called Veda = experiential knowledge. Vedas were known as Mantra before, they were named Veda later. In Shanskrit Vedana = experience = tangible feeling. There were three types of Vedana, Sukha Vedana = pleasant feeling, Dukkha Vedana = unpleasant feeling, and Adukhamasukham Vedana = neutral feeling. But now days the word Vedana refers unpleasant experience only.

Vedas contains experience of different types of peoples and Yogis. You can filter biggest part of Vedas through simple intellectual analysis. For example you can not accept the brutality to Dasas. You can not accept caste system (don't define them yourselves, it was not labor division at all). You can not accept cow, horse like animal killing ceremony. You can not accept greedy mantras that asked from demigods for wealth, food, rain etc. You can not accept alcohol drinking ceremonies.

Then you may encounter something advance which your intellect neither accept not reject, in such case you need to have some understanding of meditation so that you can analyze it. This is how one becomes spiritual. From my experience I can say, spirituality is an exact science without approximation. It is the greatest truth of mind and matter, it is not something brainwashing magic. People have very bad habit of talking about things without any knowledge. They define and decide things according to their thoughts. As we know different people have different thought and a same people also don't have similar thoughts all the time. Thoughts are thoughts, imagination is imagination, speculation is speculation but truth is truth which must be experienced and needs a lot of effort.

If you don't know Tipithaka you will have hard time to analyze Vedas. Tipithakas contains quite a good amount of Vedic text. Time of Buddha was the end of Vedic era, so we can see how people were using Vedas, how were they practicing Vedas. One of my friends who is graduate student of Comparative Religious Studies at UC Berkeley said, Buddhism and Vedic Hindusm are very close but Pauranic Hindusm is completely unrelated to Vedic Hindusm ( I am not going to talk about Pauranic Hindusm here, it's a long story, I don't want to start another chapter of confusion. I know from the postings most of you don't know the difference between Vedic and Pauranic Hindusm. You should be wondering that I am talking about Hinduism but don't talk about Shiva, Vishnu, Ram, Krishna, Brahma, god etc, don't be :)).

You can find a lot many Vedic texts in Tipitha. You might have been hearing that Buddha opposed the Vedic teaching, which was just a white blame. He learned all Vedic Samadhis from Alar Kalam and Uddak Ramputtra. Pancha Sila, five moral precepts were already there in the society. Many Trivedi (who knows three Vedas, at that time there was no forth Veda, which was developed after Buddha) Brahmans (Shela, Babari, Janasoni etc) became Buddha's monk, why? Why most of the prominent monks like Sari Puttra, Mogallan, Mahakassap, Mahakotthik, Mahakattayan etc are from Brahman family? Do some study! Buddha was great scientist, he accepted only what was good in Veda, he rejected what was useless. What to talk about super human Buddha, there are lot many things in Veda that simple people like us also can reject. Its another long story, I don't want to go there to generate more confusion.


Arya Sakti Ji and Soleli Ji, I don't mind whether Aryan came 5000 years ago or 10,000 years ago. I don't mind whether Max Miller's theory is valid or Kenneth Chandler's. It doesn't matter to me. My purpose is served if you believe in the scientific investigated facts but not on the hypothetical rumors. I believe that we are in the same boat, aren't we :)? Hope you don't believe Vedas are gift of supernormal power and heard in millions of years go in hypothetical era known as Sati :). Hope you believe that Vedas are collection of experiences of an ethnic group which can not be older than ten thousand years :).

Vishu avtar ji Satya yuga was not billon years ago coz our brahmans follows

1 day of brahma =100 yrs
10 yrs of brhama= 10,000 yrs

so it has been expanded because they follow brahma calender

actually it was 10,000 yrs ago

(Sorry I mean Vedic Life Ji not Arya Sakti Ji, names sounds similar :))

Let me tell you something useless; don't accept this if you don't like, this is not important thing at all. If I have to accept, I will love to accept Kenneth's theory, because it looks more realistic to me. I believe that Aryan people must have come from other land (I apologize if Kenneth has mentioned this in his thesis; I couldn't get time to complete it). Here are my points.

Veda clearly says that Aryan people had fair skin and they were living with dark skinned people. Veda clearly says that these dark skinned people were Dasas, the slave. This means that Aryan must have invaded (not necessarily around 2000 BC) them because until modern time there was a tradition of slaving defeated. Description of Indus valley in Vedas is the proof of being them written in India. Most importantly they were written in Kali Yug :).

Anthropologists don't believe that Harappa and Mahenjo Daro cities were not Aryan city like; it means they must belong to dark skinned Dravidians. The structure of the cities tells that the Dravidian must be advanced civilization. This also shows that Aryan must have come from somewhere else. There is no proof that Aryan and Dravidians had any serious battle, but Vedas clearly reveal the brutality of Aryans over Dravidians. We can not reject this fact. This also supports that Aryans must had come from outside.

If dark skinned Dravidians had come from some other place and attacked to Aryans, got defeated and became slave. This is unthinkable, first, defeated attackers hard to survive, second, where did the dark woman come from? Were they among the attacker? This is unacceptable.

If you want to say dark skinned Dravidians and fair skinned Aryans both are indigenous Indians, you are challenging the science. How could in a same environment two different colored people maintain their color? Tropical India votes for Dravidians as the indigenous Indians.

If you say both are from the same origin, language roots are different and I don't think it is possible scientifically that form a same gene two completely different looking people with different language can born in the same environment.

All in all Aryan must have come from outside, might not be around 2000 BC, might be around 20,000 BC. Tomorrow new scientific probes of investigation will be developed and much clear picture of those days will come. There is no wisdom of arguing on such things.

I am not a history person, neither I am interested in it. I am interested in fact, the reality, the truth. I want people come out of their blind believes. Blind belief is not spirituality; spirituality is an exact truth, not an approximate truth. You can't get truth through imagination. Spiritual people come to visit Indian subcontinent not because of Vedas, Upanishads, Tipithaka or any other religious ideas. They come because of the tradition, the Yogic tradition.

Our forefathers didn't invest their time to built Pyramids, temples, and huge monuments. They discovered the path where one can get peaceful state of mind. They discovered it through their own effort, it was not through the mercy of some almighty god. The discovery didn't take place in a single night; it was utter effort of generations of Yogic practice. It was contribution of those great Yogis. Don't try to limit these Yogis to a particle cast like Brahman and Kshatriyas, these people were from all groups of society from Sindha to Himalayas.

Let's respect this Yogic tradition, come out of our baseless belief, do some research, find out the truth ourself. Don't think we are spiritual just because we born in Jambu Dipa, the Dharma Land. Don't think you are spiritual just because you believe on Veda, Tipithaka, some Yogis or Saints. You have to follow the path showed by those Yogis and experience the tranquility of mind that they had experienced. Their experience went with them. Their experience made them peaceful. To calm down our mind, to get peace we have to experience ourselves. To quench our thrust we have to dirnk water. It is simple science. To walk in the path discovered by and walked by our forefathers is real tribute to them.

Those who seek tranquility of mind remember the Indian subcontinent because of these Yogis and their discoveries. The pride of being descendent of those great Yogis will give us nothing. Grandson of Michael Faraday has to live in darkness if he can not pay the electric bill, though the electricity is being generated by the principle discovered by Faraday.

( MM Ji do you really believe those Brahmic calender stuff :)?!!!!!! By the way I don't want to talk about it. I want to write to you about Shiva but I don't want to touch Pauranic Hindusm, at least not this time. This much is for this weekend. I will write to -Ji hopefully next weekend. My postings are incomplete in all the threads, but they are not confusing, but I think this thread has brought some confusion, I will still post here so that at least nothing remain confusing)

Good discussion!

I keep hearing about when this era began and when this era ended. Can someone please lay out the apprioximate dates as to how these eras are defined and classified . Any reference to sources would also be very helpful. Thanks.